Interview|Azerbaijan gave up the Zangzor Corridor due to Iran’s pressure
| A member of the National Security Commission of the Armenian Parliament said: "Despite two years and a half, Azerbaijan has given up on taking the Zangzor Corridor due to Iran's pressure, but we still have concerns." |
According to Tasnim, “Ana Grigoryan”, a member of the National Security Commission of the Armenian Parliament, in a conversation with an international reporter Tasnim News Agency explained the latest internal situation of this country as well as developments in the Caucasus after the Nagorno-Karabakh war, the process of peace negotiations and foreign policy undertaken by the government of Nikol Pashinyan, the Prime Minister of Armenia during the past three years, which According to readers.
Armenian Karabakh immigrants are not doing well
Tasnim: What is the current situation of Karabakh Armenians who moved to Armenia?
Grigorian: The issue of Karabagh was not new and it goes back to the past period in 88-89 AD when the movement of Karabagh started and from the same years Azerbaijan was planning to do this cleansing. In the same years, we witnessed the cleansing of the Armenian people in Baku and other cities of Azerbaijan, and after the first war, a format was formed to solve the Karabakh issue. Armenia has always been subject to the format that was formed to solve the Karabakh problem because it believed that this issue should be solved through dialogue and through the international format (the Minsk format consisting of the United States, France, Russia and several other western countries). But why did this happen? Azerbaijan never sought to determine the right to the fate of the people of Karabakh. Azerbaijan wanted to have Karabagh without Armenians and it got its wish and we saw that after Karabagh was surrounded, Lachin Corridor was closed and Armenians were forced to leave.
Regarding the current situation of the Karabaghs in Armenia, I must also say that unfortunately they are in a very bad situation, because they lost their jobs, houses and everything and had to leave their native lands for a day or two. Unfortunately, more than 100,000 Armenians who left Karabakh are not in good conditions at all, and their main problem is housing and jobs, and for this reason, in the 6-7 months that have passed since that incident, about 10,000 Karabakhs have also left Armenia. Most of them went to Russian cities. A few migrated to other European countries.
Immigrants fearing a new war in They will not settle in Sivnik
Tasnim: Are these immigrants going to settle in the southern regions of Armenia?
Grigorian: Since I am the representative of Sivnik Province, I must say that very few of those who were expelled from Karabagh have now settled in Sivnik Province; What we thought should be more, but unfortunately for the same security reasons, even though Sivnik province and Karabagh were very close geographically and culturally, the immigrants preferred to be outside the war zones and go to other cities in Armenia. Because they didn’t want to build a life there once again and God forbid one day Sionik will have problems and they will be forced to migrate again.
21 km of the Goris-Qapan transit road is under the occupation of Azerbaijan
Tasnim: Do immigrants give the possibility of war in Sivnik province ?
Gregorian: As I said, because they had lost their homes and lives a couple of times, and even though they saw, they were still the chief. The President of Azerbaijan talks about the reopening of the Zangzor Corridor and has stated many times that Sivnik is part of the historical territory of Azerbaijan. Let’s not forget that after the war of 2020, Azerbaijan, in addition to what it said about Sivnik province, has also invaded several times and major parts of Sivnik territory are now occupied by Azerbaijan, and 21 km of the Goris-Qapan road is now occupied. This was one of the reasons why people decided not to settle in this area or to leave it. We were in Yerevan. What were the reasons for that?
Grigoryan: These were mainly family members of the Karabaghs who lived in Yerevan and came out to be supported by the Armenian government. and support the expelled people, and there were also Armenian nationalists who wanted the Armenian government to help Karabakh, but unfortunately, the Armenian government did not stop the violence committed by Azerbaijan against the people of Karabakh in 2023 and did not actually participate in that war. He watched how the Karabaghis left their native region. The protesters wanted the resignation of the government.
The problems of Karabakh started when Pashinyan called it part of the territory of Azerbaijan >
Tasnim: Pashinyan announced from the very beginning of the war that this is an internal issue of Azerbaijan.
Grigoryan: The problem was that Mr. Pashinyan announced in Prague on October 22, 2022 that he recognizes the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, which until then no Armenian leader had taken this position and he did this. and the problems started from here. Just as the Prague Declaration opened Azerbaijan’s hand to genocidal actions and considered it an internal matter, it also started this ethnic cleansing. Although at the same time, Pashinyan announced that by giving Karabakh, we can bring the world to Armenia and ensure that the territorial integrity of Armenia is preserved, but we saw that this did not happen, and after that, the borders of Armenia are being attacked and countless dangers are facing Armenia. .
Pashinyan’s statements about Karabakh were demagogues
Tasnim: Mr. Pashinyan said that what I did was to make public an action that the past leaders had done, but they did not have the courage to announce it publicly; I didn’t do anything new.
Grigoryan: These words of Pashinyan were for demagoguery and internal fodder. In addition, he has said several different things. Once he said that they gave Karabagh in 1991, once in 1994, once in 1998 and again in 2000; This was mostly for internal demagoguery. If they had given Karabakh, why did Azerbaijan wait for 30 years and now took it. Then let’s not forget the Minsk group that was formed, where 3 members of the permanent members of the Security Council, namely France, Russia and the United States, were present. They were not idle to negotiate for twenty years. Why should they negotiate? If the previous governments had promised, why should the Minsk Group spend so much time negotiating. This is more demagoguery.
We all seek peace, but the peace that is imposed on us is not dignified
Tasnim: How do you evaluate the negotiations between Azerbaijan and Armenia during the last 3 years?
Gregorian: We all agree that peace should finally be formed, but unfortunately this peace that is imposed on us now is a peace with dignity. is not. Initially, the right of return of the Armenian population of Karabagh to their homeland was supposed to be included in the peace agreement, but unfortunately, our government also ignored this issue. In the peace process, it was supposed to withdraw the territories occupied by Azerbaijan from the natural territory of Armenia after the war, but this did not happen. In the peace treaty, prisoners of war were supposed to be released, Armenia released Azerbaijani prisoners, but we still have prisoners in Azerbaijan, in addition to the fact that after the cleansing of Karabakh, former leaders and presidents are now in prisons in Baku, and this release did not happen either. /p>
Since 3 years ago when the negotiations started, Armenia has always sought the presence of a third party in the negotiations so that there is an international forum as a guarantor of the peace treaty. But unfortunately, Azerbaijan was against having a guarantor from the beginning and constantly repeated that we should negotiate face to face.
In the new versions of peace with Azerbaijan, we see Yerevan’s retreats
Tasnim: Azerbaijan used to say that we would do our work with Russia
Grigoryan: At first he wanted to be Russia, but later because Armenia was the losing side and Baku felt himself to be the winning side, He thought that he could negotiate face-to-face and get more concessions.
In the initial negotiations of the peace treaty, Azerbaijan was supposed to withdraw its forces from the areas it had occupied after 2020. slow, but when these negotiations took place face-to-face and without a mediator, that issue was also left out of the negotiations. As a representative who was once able to see the contents of the peace negotiations closely through the parliament, unfortunately, in the versions that I saw recently and which were not published, of course, these issues were left out and there was no clause about Azerbaijan withdrawing from the territory of Armenia. There is no such thing.
In the beginning, a mechanism was supposed to be formed to determine the borders and demarcation, in which all these cases were seen, but unfortunately that mechanism is not implemented and Now Armenia is unilaterally ceding its territories.
The prospect of peace is unclear
Tasnim: Do you mean the transfer of 4 villages to Azerbaijan recently?
Grigorian: The transfer of 4 villages happens for this purpose. Because previously, that mechanism was supposed to be formed, first working groups from two countries would come to work on different maps and then this issue would be implemented, but unfortunately Azerbaijan and Aliyev himself said that we should separate and separate the peace treaty with the issue of demarcation and demarcation of the border. And this incident of 4 villages is happening because of the stupidity of our officials, because it is done without a plan and that mechanism does not exist. An Armenian, I really want peace because no one hates peace, but in this situation, when the Armenian government ignores everything, ignores the rights of its citizens, ignores its land, does not follow up on the return of prisoners, do you really think that peace is possible? /p>
208 square kilometers of Armenian territory is occupied by Azerbaijan
Tasnim: Do you mean the areas that Azerbaijan has occupied and must withdraw from, the border villages that have been disputed by both sides, or is there a specific area they are considering?
Grigorian: Azerbaijan has now occupied 21 kilometers of the Gris-Qapan road in Sivnik Province.
According to its official announcement, the Armenian government As of 2020, 208 square kilometers of Armenian lands are occupied by Azerbaijan, a part of which is located in Sivnik, and that 21-kilometer road and villages are also occupied, which have nothing to do with those areas that Azerbaijan says. These are among the 208 kilometers of occupied Armenian lands after the 2020 war.
These occupied areas are among the strategic areas and heights of Armenia that Azerbaijan now has access to. Through it, it can control all our cities and even our intercity roads and highways are under the control and crosshairs of Azerbaijan, and that is why we insist that the occupiers should leave these areas.
All maps of mined areas have been handed over to the Azerbaijani side
Tasnim: Azerbaijan says that for the past three years it has been demanding a map of the minefields of the liberated areas from Armenia, and what Yerevan has given is not accurate and will lead to the killing of Azerbaijani citizens. Is this correct or not?
Grigoryan: All the mine maps during these 3 years have been handed over to Azerbaijan and I have this with I assure you, and there were even times when they released a number of Armenian prisoners in the past three years in exchange for giving these maps of mined areas. There is no other plan and what Azerbaijan says is not true.
Tasnim: Last year they said that a peace agreement might be reached between the two countries at the end of the year or at the beginning of this year, but with the situation It is likely that the process will be longer.
Grigorian: Yes, this agreement was supposed to be formed at the end of last year, then they said that the beginning of the new year the peace agreement It will be signed, but I want to say that why should Azerbaijan pursue a peace treaty? If he goes after it, he should take responsibility and fulfill it, but if he can get whatever he wants from Armenia without a peace agreement, why should he go after a peace agreement? Now our government gives him whatever he wants, why should he pursue a peace treaty that creates obligations for him?
Ukraine war It has caused a kind of convergence between Turkey and Russia in the Caucasus
Tasnim: About the trends and developments that we see in the South Caucasus during the last 3 years. What do you think about the position of countries like Turkey and Russia?
Grigorian: Naturally, the events of the last three years and the war that happened in Ukraine caused a kind of Convergence between Turkey and Russia. Although the West and Europe want to increase Turkey’s role in the Caucasus against Russia and weaken Russia, Turkey is now considered an important player and its role has increased in the Caucasus over the past few years.
Russia will not give its place in the Caucasus to Turkey
Tasnim: It is said that due to the war in Ukraine, Russia is weakened and has a weaker presence in the Caucasus, and due to the fact that a vacuum is created, Moscow prefers that Turkey fill this vacuum instead of Iran. fill, is this view correct?
Grigoryan: Of course, with the war going on in Ukraine, Russia needs some renewal It should have strength and not spread all its forces, and it is naturally a little distanced from the Caucasus, but maybe in some places its interests require it to be aligned with Turkey. With my knowledge of Russia, I think this is temporary and Russia is never ready to give its place to Turkey in the Caucasus.
Azerbaijan gave up the Zangzor Corridor due to Iran’s pressure
Tasnim: Your opinion about What is the corridor that Azerbaijan seeks to establish in the south of Armenia and calls it Zangzor? Will we witness the creation of a corridor in its legal sense or not, like the events you mentioned, and we witnessed the withdrawal of Yerevan step by step?
Grigoryan : In the Moscow agreement, there was a clause for the Lachine Corridor, but there was no mention of the Zangzor Corridor. After a few months, Aliyev included Zangzor Corridor and he himself admitted that it was not in the November 9 agreement, and my skill made me put Zangzor Corridor in front of Lachine Corridor. But according to what we said when I said that our government will give whatever Azerbaijan wants, despite the one and a half and two years that Azerbaijan refused to take the Zangzor Corridor due to Iran’s pressure, when our government gave whatever Azerbaijan wanted He wants to accept it easily. I am afraid that this is one of the cases that Armenia will easily hand over to Azerbaijan. It was this government that shouted 3 years ago, “Karabagh is Armenia and that’s enough” and we saw that Karabakh became Azerbaijan and that’s it. I think that despite the fact that they repeated several times that Zangzor is our red line and we do not agree, considering the history of this government, it is not unlikely that they will give in to this corridor as well.
Zangzor Corridor has no economic benefit for Armenia
Tasnim: They say that because Armenia is in Ben Trapped in a strategic stalemate, the creation of this corridor may create a breathing space for Armenia and take it out of its current state. Is it possible that both the government and the people will agree to be given a part of their land in exchange for this? Get rid of the strategic impasse?
Grigoryan: I am sure that all the people of Armenia agree that the communication roads have been opened and this impasse You decided to get out of the stuck Armenia. But don’t forget that Turkey and Azerbaijan, who say that if the Zangzor Corridor is opened, it can help Armenia’s economic interests, are the same two countries that closed their borders with us. First, let them open their borders and then talk about these issues.
Secondly, the Zangzor Corridor has no economic benefits for Armenia, because it is not an economic corridor but a political corridor whose purpose is to connect Turkey to Azerbaijan reaches through Nakhchivan, then Central Asia, even China. They insist for this purpose. If Turkey and Azerbaijan wanted to get out of the economic impasse in Armenia, they would reopen the railway line that existed years ago and there was no need for the corridor.
We asked the government if there are any calculations that if this corridor is reopened, what economic benefit will Armenia get from it? Unfortunately, they said that we don’t have calculations and we don’t have any vision of what will happen. That’s why I confidently say that this corridor is a political corridor, not an economic one.
They say that Russia guarantees the 40 kilometers that are on the territory of Armenia, but my question That is, who will guarantee that the cargo that is going to go from Armenia to Russia with Armenian drivers from all over Azerbaijan will be safe? Is there supposed to be a mechanism there too? Therefore, this mechanism is not practical.
Tasnim: According to your position and you are familiar with Iran’s position regarding Zangzouz. Considering that both Iran and Russia are influential countries in the region, especially that Iran is a supporter of maintaining the current state of the borders and geopolitics of the region, their view is that international countries should not be present, what is your opinion about this presence? That the Armenian government has turned to European and Western countries, and given that Iran has this concern, how do they want to respond to this concern?
Grigorian: As MPs, especially the opposition representatives in the parliament, we have repeatedly expressed our protest and complaints about the government’s policies. Because we see that contrary to what they say many times that we are looking for security guarantors, we do not see anything from the West and we protested this many times and this has even caused our strategic ally like Russia to be displeased with us and our friend and brother country Iran as well. You know that the security guarantee that Europe and the West should provide to Armenia should be through NATO because it is NATO that is present there. European countries themselves have no power. It is NATO that is their strength. On the other hand, we know that nobody in NATO is waiting for Armenia and Armenia will never enter NATO. We have always had this complaint and protest to the government that such a hasty move to the West will bring us nothing but destruction! For the past two years, although Russia has been a military ally of Armenia, Russia has not intervened several times when Azerbaijan has attacked Armenia. The reason was that Russia was involved in the Ukraine war and did not want to open another front with the West in the Caucasus. This is where we, as the opposition, have always suggested to the government to fill the role that Russia used to play and now lost due to the conflict with Ukraine, with Iran. I think that now is the time for us to act instead of making nice statements and declarations.
Tasnim: Of course, they emphasize that the purpose of this corridor is to send goods from Europe. It is to China and vice versa.
Grigorian: It is natural that Azerbaijan and Turkey should come up with this excuse to be able to even implement this plan. The Europeans themselves should sell, and I say with confidence that this is nothing but a game between these two countries, Azerbaijan and Turkey.
The government’s approach has upset Russia and Iran
Tasnim: As the opposition, you are of the position that this approach which the government has taken does not have much result for relations with the West. Are the government and Mr. Pashinyan not aware of the fact that considering that Ukraine was planning to join NATO, but that disaster happened? If a war breaks out between Azerbaijan and Armenia, will a country like France help or just make a statement? Does relying on a country like France, which is on the other side of the world, sound reasonable?
Gregorian: I doubt that someone Like Pashinyan, he does not know what he is doing. He knows 100% and the person who taught him taught him very well. As the opposition, we do not believe that he is doing this without knowing. What he is doing now is to protect his own interests and his own power, and that is why he gives in to everything.
I don’t need to ask for my opinion on whether Whether France helps or not, they told us very clearly that we will not help you in case of a military attack on Armenia! There was a war and we in Armenia had a problem with buying military weapons, France could somehow fill that void by giving us weapons, but unfortunately, the weapons that France gave us are not weapons that can strengthen our defense system against The enemy should strengthen.
If our government behaved wisely after the war that started in Ukraine, it should have learned from it and not let international actors and powers open their feet to Armenia. But he acted unwisely and opened the feet of these actors to our region. For example, on April 5, Pashinyan’s meeting in Brussels with European Commission President von der Leyen and US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken caused Russia’s displeasure and Iran’s displeasure, as both countries publicly said. So here we should not have allowed others to enter the area.
About Iran’s military presence In Armenia, we discussed twice in the parliament.
Our northern borders are clear. It means changing the borders is our red line. The geopolitical changes of the border are officially said to be our red line. But the position that has been put forward informally is that Iran and Armenia conclude a strategic agreement based on which Iran can intervene if something happens to Armenia. Now there were discussions about the type and quality of this agreement. Among other things, Iran has a military presence or an advisory presence in Sionik region, but it has not been addressed by Yerevan during the past three years. Has the issue of the strategic agreement and the presence of Iran’s advisor in Armenia been discussed? It has been in the past and it is very friendly and fraternal, but until now the French military presence in Armenia has not been discussed. As a member of parliament, I asked this question several times. I will give two examples, once in a closed meeting we had with the Minister of Defense, I asked this and the Minister of Defense explained the reasons for not signing this agreement. Once, in the public hall of the parliament, in the presence of journalists, where the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Ararat Mirzoyan, was also present, I asked the same question from behind the podium, whether you are looking for an agreement with Iran, so that in the event of an attack on Armenia, Iran would have the excuse that to have a military presence because of it, the answer that Mr. Mirzoyan gave us was that “our relations with Iran are very good and developing” and they did not mention anything about this. But I must boldly say that this issue is still on the agenda of the opposition representatives.
Pashinyan’s popularity reached 8% Is
Tasnim: Considering the policies that Pashinyan has taken towards the Caucasus and the relations with the neighbors, the view of the Armenian people during these 3 What is the record of the government this year?
Grigoryan: In 2018, when Pashinyan came to power, he had countless fans, but now, according to the latest survey conducted In Armenia, Pashinyan’s popularity is below 8%. The reason is that he promised a peace treaty after the 2021 elections, but the people saw many wars during this time, and this was one of the reasons that made Pashinyan’s popularity so low.
The second issue regarding the policies he had towards Turkey, I should say that a separate working group and negotiation between Armenia and Turkey is going on, but let’s not forget that it was Turkey that unilaterally blocked its border with Armenia about 30 years ago. And it is Turkey that should reopen the border without preconditions. Although it was said that the border will be opened for the use of a third country, but the border is still closed and Turkey wants to get concessions from Armenia in this way.
Forget about Turkey. Let’s not say that the Armenian people are not willing to open the border with Turkey and establish bilateral relations in exchange for forgetting the Armenian Genocide.
Grigorian: Although the issue of genocide is one of the main priorities of the foreign affairs of the Republic of Armenia and is registered in the law the basis of Armenia, but just as Pashinyan has forbidden Armenian statesmen to mention Artsakh or Karabagh today, he easily skips the issue of genocide and instead of the word genocide, which so many countries in the world have named, he mentions the word “great crime” This is one of the policies of everything against nothing. Don’t think that these are a series of ordinary words and images, these are steps to destroy the country’s nationality.
Sanction The heavy measures of the West against Iran have prevented Tehran-Yervan relations from flourishing. They have a lot of will to develop it, and we have good relations at the political level, but at the economic level, we don’t see any special development. Many of our contracts are still left on the ground, and 300 to 500 million dollars is not a figure that wants to answer the potential of relations. In your opinion, what are the obstacles to this lack of development of economic relations?
Gregorian: I consider two factors important; One is the very heavy sanctions imposed by the West and Europe on Iran, followed during all these years, and the other is the pressure that the West has put on the government, especially in the last few years, with the existence of the current government of Armenia, not to have too many relations with Iran. /p>
Conversation by Ali Heydari
| © | Webangah News Hub has translated this news from the source of Tasnim News Agency |
