Looking to the East|Chinese-style holistic rise for global acting/4

According to Tasnim news agency, Tasnim News, in a case titled “Silk Road Partner” has evaluated the strategy of looking to the east in the foreign policy of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the bilateral relations between Iran and China. The contents of this file include detailed conversations and notes related to this strategy. The fourth part of this program has paid attention to the political, economic and common perspectives of the relations between these two countries. In this turn, Berdia Attaran, a foreign policy researcher, focuses on the macroeconomic perspective of the new China, regional and bilateral issues. In a roundtable discussion with the presence of Nematullah Pahlavan and Farshad Adel, experts in the field of China discussed the dimensions of the future Tehran-Beijing cooperation. The details of this conversation are as follows. 

between Iran and the People’s Republic of China. If you allow me to start the conversation with Mr. Adel, Mr. Adel, how do you see the prospects of relations between China and the countries of the region and the world? Shall we make a sound?

Farshad Adel: In response to your question, if I want to provide an answer that is all-round and can cover all dimensions, I need to give you an introduction first, because the topic of the Chinese dream came up, there should be a sufficient understanding first. we can get from the Chinese mentality and then see what dream or goal this mentality pursues. Perhaps today, one of the most important signs that helps us to understand this mentality is the Paneh and Rah initiative, which is currently known and offered as a brand for international cooperation between China and other countries and is also welcomed.

Many may say that this initiative was not successful or did not fulfill its goals, but we must look at this initiative from a correct perspective. The Belt and Road Initiative was actually a branding effort to shape international cooperation between China and other countries to encourage them to enter China’s grand strategy. In any case, they will help those long-term plans that China has in mind for the architecture of a new order in the international space, and today we see that perhaps more than 70 countries are in this plan and framework with China. cooperate and this interest exists among different countries, except for a series of countries that are included in the western axis;  However, most of the developing countries and the countries that are located in the Afro-Eurasian axis, that is, Asia, Africa and part of Europe, have shown this desire, that they are interested in cooperating with China, and this has marked a change in the international space anyway. It is.

Tasnim: What is this Belt and Road Initiative? What is manifestation?

Farshad Adel: This is exactly what I want to get across. Today, China is known in different dimensions as a country that only produces economic or industrial products; While the China that we should know today is the China that is offering intellectual products to the world. One of these intellectual products is the Belt and Road initiative, and I emphasize on the term belt instead of the belt, and why am I emphasizing on this issue? China’s point of view is that we, as an eastern power, should have a rise, should experience growth, and this growth has started for decades and today it has reached a stable point, but China introduced itself to the world as a country. China is bound to act responsibly against this growth it has found, this is the official announcement of the leaders of China, it is even mentioned in their documents.

China declares that I am thinking of a dream and that world is with a common destiny, this is their motto. In order for this world to reach that common destiny, which is one of the important axes of development. I want to help other countries and take the leadership of developing countries so that we can all equally enjoy development and modernization with the conditions that the Chinese emphasize, that is, Chinese modernization, and lead the way in that direction and develop a To rule in the same way throughout the Afro-Eurasia region.

Afro-Asia region includes the continents of Asia, Africa and actually Europe, which we examine today, We see that the Chinese are currently the largest foreign investors in Africa; They have very large economic relations with very large numbers with the countries of West Asia, as well as with some countries in Eastern Europe such as Belarus and countries like that, they are forming very powerful economic activities and they are seeking to become a somehow create a connection and an economic adhesion between the different axes of this axis, which is against the transatlantic axis or the western axis, which we see today, especially in developing countries, is a mainly destructive role. /p>

Description: to What do you think is the vision of the Chinese and what story do the Chinese want to present to the world? As a country that is close to the Chinese and our relations are expanding, what should we understand from the Chinese?

Nematullah Pahlavi: We should put China in a platform between International as a global power, so we need to distance ourselves a bit from the western view of the Chinese. Let’s see China from the point of view of the Chinese themselves, that is, for example, you can examine China from the perspective of realism, liberalism, the English school, any of these, but I think we should go back to the Chinese school of international relations.

They examine three theories. They have three important theories, the theory of Tien Xia or the harmonious world, the theory of Jun Yang, which is the theory of dialectics, and the third theory that we trust is the theory of moral realism. In moral realism, these have a central signifier called “pioneering ethical political leadership.” Each of these has its own meaning. Now I want to skip ahead. But their leadership does not mean the leadership of an individual, but the leadership of a special group of pioneers.

They describe four models of the type of leadership, and being a pioneer is a kind of Leadership is defined as being able to make reforms, be revisionist, and take risks; Being ethical also categorizes three types of ethics: individual, state and global ethics; What they mean is governmental and global ethics, which they say is adherence to all international rules and institutions, while we also respect human rights. We also think about future prosperity, collective prosperity and this is the view of government and global ethics.

They say in this theory that transferring power is something is happening, we are facing the transfer of power between China and America in the future. But how do we track this? We advance this with an adherence to peace, adherence to international stability, so we can see this way, unlike the transitions that happened in history, and almost 70 to 80% of them were based on war, the Chinese do not look at it this way. The Chinese want it, by the way, with peace and taking advantage of international institutions and what we have seen so far, they took advantage of it and made themselves the second economic and military power, etc., because powers can be transformed.

That’s why we see them introducing themselves as responsible shareholders at the beginning of the new century. The responsible international shareholder and again the strategy, for example, we see the good neighbor of Jiang Zemin, that is, we see things from China that has a peaceful and peaceful rise, and we will not see anything from him in the future.

Tasnim: There is a narrative among Iranians, maybe it is because of the same domestic behavior as the Chinese, to Because of the authoritarian system ruling China and we also consider authoritarianism and tyranny to be the most important factor behind our backwardness in the country, there is a fear that this China that gains power, if it spreads its wings over the region and the world, this authoritarianism will spill over to our country. .
This narrative that you are telling does not include such a thing, that is, what I understand, we can see both in their slogan and in their behavior of the last twenty or thirty years that they had no territorial encroachment; We have not witnessed any geopolitical aggression and interference in countries other than Southeast China. If you have any additional points in this area, please tell me?

Nematullah Pahlavani: When you look at East Asia, China has a series of historical territorial claims, for example, in Southeast Asia, in South China waters, they have a principle have constant They say that before these waters, they are considered territorial waters; Now, it doesn’t matter to us what international law says, where it defines territorial waters, according to history, here are our territorial waters. They are extremely careful about their land, that is, those territorial disputes that have been for them according to history are important to them; But you also look at history, they didn’t leave their land that far, a series of governments in the region paid a tribute to them because they came to provide their security, they were their tribute payers.

But we did not see the Chinese attack and taking, for example, Southeast Asia by the Chinese. That is, when we look at the history, the future will surely follow the past, we see that this was not the case. Moreover, China in the past centuries, now before the century of China’s misery, which is considered to be the 18th and 19th centuries, before that, we were on the side of a powerful China in history, which can truly be said to have been the hegemon of the Asian world. We can even see the Silk Road stretching from China to Europe where trade took place and one of the important components of hegemony is this; Many countries that deal with this country will benefit from this issue. This country is the dominant land of the hegemon, which is China, but despite this, it has not had any non-peaceful activism in history.

dir=”RTL” style=”text-align:justify”>Tasnim: Let’s go back to the story of Paneh and Rah; What is the cause of the Chinese view of the expansion of this initiative to the east? Why do they want to come to the east and what is the position of each country in this field? For example, the Chinese had the closest route to us until today through Gwadar, and the Chinese established a strategic relationship with Pakistan, naturally they have an eye on Central Asia. How can this view gradually flow to our country?

Farshad Adel: The advance of China basically not only China but all the eastern civilizations had a tendency towards the land in general and that is why we see that in the 15th century there are westerners who explore sea routes and that order and The economic balance of the world is changing. And because of those two, it changes and, for example, Europe turns from the end point of the Silk Road into the starting point of the new world.

While until Before that, we were eastern countries, the main source of our power and wealth was the trade routes, the most famous of which is the Silk Road, which connected us, and along this route there were also governments, there were roads that benefited from these trade routes. In fact, they use it, and this itself has a point in it.  The Silk Road itself is generally a commercial route as a symbol of Eastern cooperation, and the Chinese themselves had most of the economic and commercial activities throughout history, that is, we have never seen the brutality that may have been caused by Westerners anywhere. To act like the Europeans, to enslave a country to extract its resources while the people of that country are dying of hunger.

With a A series of slogans have been put into action and are being promoted in practice, which are humane slogans. They are attractive slogans for most of the developing countries that were under the shadow of the West for years, and today they feel that there is an alternative and a replacement in front of them to achieve development. And anyway, this is one of the topics that China is presenting.

China says there is another way to achieve development. Yes, but the reason why it is actually moving on the ground and towards the west comes from the fact that it is basically a strategy that Mr. Wan Ji Sin presented in 2009, which according to the issues they have in the seas is the dominant power anyway. America’s powers are in the seas, sea-centered countries are ocean-centered, and in fact, the axis is ocean-centered, and according to the geopolitical dimensions that existed, they decided to have a plan under the title of moving towards the west, which we finally crystallized in We saw the belt and road initiative.

Trade routes were defined in it as corridors that created connections between China and other places in the Asian region. In a way, they were actually wide, and these routes were extended to Europe, so a series of cultural, historical, and actually geopolitical reasons led China to think that its progress, its economic progress, is based on those ideas that In the case of the Eastern civilization that existed anyway, advance it and turn it into a comprehensive idea that can make different countries cooperate with each other based on it and create a cooperation between them.

In fact, he first says that the security of all countries is tied to each other. All countries have security, which is related to other countries and needs to be thought about. Second, they emphasize on win-win benefits and win-win results. Soma emphasizes multilateralism a lot. Fourth, on the advancement of global civilization. These four are the main slogans that China uses to shape its cooperation, and each of these items has been presented to the world in the form of an initiative that is an intellectual product to shape these cooperation.

Why does it do these things? This is because China has found this historical and civilizational awareness that the fate of the whole of Asia is tied to each other, not from today but from long ago. It has become very deep cultural.

Tasnim: These four components that you mentioned How is the country of our region represented? That is, for example, what is the special function of this road belt when it comes to Pakistan and Central Asia in the middle north-south route of each of them?

Farshad Adel: If we want to actually look at the whole idea of ​​the wide road – apart from the mentality that exists about it – but one goal It follows a general goal and that general goal is to form a value chain in which every country can play a role based on its advantages.

For example, the Arab countries or the Middle East and West Asia region have an energy advantage, or for example a country like Pakistan has this advantage for China that makes it an actor in the Indian Ocean; It gives access to China to reach the Indian Ocean and now the competition it has there with the Indians and there is a logical relationship between Pakistan and India that is based on common interests and threats and is very deep and a cooperation It is almost an example between China and other countries.

When we look at the relationship between China and Pakistan, which somehow plays a role, the goal China’s final form of a developed area is interconnected. We have seen the developments in Pakistan, the role played by the US and the efforts it is making in order to somehow establish the stability that should be established in the Asian region and even in the next dimensions in the African and Asian regions. which brings development, which is the motto of the Chinese, should be undermined in some way.

The general view of the Chinese is that a chain Let’s form a value that every country can participate and benefit from this value chain based on its own advantages. Finally, by forming this value chain, which is the way of development corridors, including rail corridors, road corridors, energy lines, digital lines and all kinds of tools that establish communication between these countries and tie them together.

We will be able to stand up against extravagances, and it is logical that the western axis has the transatlantic axis, which is the area of ​​advancement and abuse of other countries.

Therefore, China is trying to create this consensus by using its programs. Especially in the global south and developing countries, and this is why we see at the UN meeting when the representative of China, who was their vice president this year, participated and said: “We are still a developing country. and we consider ourselves bound to lead and help developing countries to achieve development”.

Chinese logic Here is a simple logic, if there is stability in the area, growth and development will come, and if growth and development come, we will no longer have security challenges. The path to growth and development is to create economic cohesion and connect these countries with each other. to finally reach a common destiny.

Tasnim: Can Such an expression is used that a corridor order is formed? In our region or the broadband partner that the Chinese are considering? If this is the case, it can be said that there is a system of corridors that have stakeholders, for example, American corridors are present in our region, such as IMAC and… or corridors that are connected to China, and perhaps the corridors that Their beneficiaries are also Russia. What does it mean by this corridor order?

Nematollah Pahlavani : One of the requirements for a power to turn into a global power to transcend regional power is to make its own institutions internationally.  Institutions can both be defined as an organization and can be defined as the must and should not be defined as economic corridors. These are the prerequisites for turning China into a global hegemony.

But to understand how this is formed, we must go back to China’s limitations. The limitations that China have noticed you have in Southeast Asia like the Malaka Strait, which has approximately 80 % of China’s energy Passing through there; 70 to 80 percent of China’s food products pass, and 90 % of the trade passes. The Indian Ocean is the Indian Strait of the Indian Islands because of the tensions with China, China is certainly concerned about the security of the Malaka Strait.

I think one One of the concerns that led China to create this belt was the Malaka Strait and the threat of the Strait, and secondly, you see China in 2010 and after turning into the second economic power of the world and taking over Japan, you see Japan. China faced two internal threats, two of which were the domestic issues, one being a staggering increase in currency reservoir until you look at the show during the years 1990 to 2013, even to date, 2013 as a trend of a very severe growth chart. has found. By 2013 to 2014, it has reached three trillion to three and a half trillion, one is the case, and the other the surplus capacity it had and needed export, which means that China’s needs moved towards the initiative of the area and the way or the belt. /p>

Now these requirements have led China to two sides: Be new markets based on the needs of companies and domestic products that use their own foreign exchange reserve resources; That is why there was a corridor that in the future considered the Chinese value chain. Because the whole country in this corridor certainly attracts China’s investments to their own investments.

You look at China for the past few years, where China has been exporting pollutants, where is the export of pollutants? To countries that are developing and in the lower rings of production chain and now based on the various models of industrial policy that the country needs to start from the same polluting industries and gradually develop, that is why we predict our prediction. This is China to invest in a country when it leads to a country, but these stages have different stages.

Tasnim: One of the most important things that have happened between us and the Chinese in recent years; The 25 -year agreement has been a 25 -year cooperation document. A narrative of this document that you think to this day, if you can tell and say what this document was going to do now?

Farshad Adel: 25 years of Iran-China Memorandum of Understanding is a roadmap that is supposed to take orientation of the two countries For each other to cooperate, what areas we were going to do and we have an agreement with the Chinese side to do so in the field of petrochemicals, and so on. There is no right to have a law that we have signed this document and the Memorandum of Understanding. Now let’s come to an agreement to form a series of collaborations.

Tasnim : This Memorandum of Understanding did not indicate the two countries’ determination?

Farshad Adel: Both Chinese and Iranian side must have this determination; Anyway, the Chinese side whose DNA foreign policy is to work with everyone, today the Chinese are saying that we are proud to be our biggest competitors, showing that they are looking to work with everyone and to work. They are thirsty and they have a desire and have a program.

especially a country like Iran with 15 neighboring countries in a very special geographical point that The connection properties between at least 4 continents are used using different land and marine capacities, not a country that one can overlook. What is the reason for the 40 years of problem we have with the West and the world?  It is our position. If we were a remote country where we could not make any trace of international developments that no one had with us, we would sit in a corner and do our job. But Iran is not a bead that you can ignore in the international game.

Farshad Adel: Yes there is a determination right now, but this is a separate discussion; We must understand with the Chinese side to work. He is also interested in working with us, but here a number of other issues are involved anyway. China has a large strategy that promotes that macro strategy and develops it with its tools like corridor tools and cooperates with the countries around us.

More than 120 billion trading volumes with Saudi Arabia have a very high business volume with Iraq as well; The volume of investments formed in the West Asian region is very high in Africa, and the Chinese orientation of a orientation that assures the parties that this is a serious actor for cooperation, but many times this We do not behave. Often we do not give this pulse to our international partners that we are also a country that is interested in developing cooperation and, however, bound to define ourselves as a major complement to your strategies.

Tasnim: What is this barrier?

Farshad Adel: is not an obstacle. There are many obstacles, for example, one of the obstacles that may not have been addressed is that we have an undergraduate middle body that is not really interested in China.  The President’s Minister may be interested in developing cooperation, but that middle body is now not positive for China for any reason, which is by the way, or in the aftermath of a 25 -year agreement, what happened to all sorts of narratives. How to sell Iran how Iran happened.

These are issues that can be lubricated for the Chinese side; The Chinese, which is trying to make an international brand from its country, is once confronted with a number of issues that may not make much assurance that it is now a good time to enter high -level cooperation with Iran. On the other hand we see a number of other things. After the automotive industry, we present all the issues we could work with the Chinese side to our Western partners who have always had this historical trend in Iran. For whatever reason we are interested in working with the western side. There are still these sediments, and a change that needs to happen, in my opinion, is here in changing our overall view of China.

We just ask people if we accidentally go to the street, sir, do you think we have a relationship with America or China? Their answer is toward America; They also have the right to America that is a superpower that surrounds discourse. Now, friends, if we ask here to name five Americans, they can easily name, but if you say five live Chinese, they may have a problem.

that hegemonic discourse that has the western side has somehow guides the minds and shapes them, and on the other hand, we have a narrative of our cooperation with China to China. What a form we do not offer. We have no narrative of cooperation with China at all. Creating a narrative is not formed for us, nor for the Chinese side.

I also deal with these Chinese friends. We say we are not clear to you, we don’t know what the truth you want to do. The Russian side says this, elsewhere may say that all of this goes back to us that unfortunately – I have said many times in different places – we do not have a national strategy to define our national interests and then say, then say, then say, This is your role here for Mr. Shi Shi, Mr. Russia is your role for us, Mr. EU is looking at you, Mr. Saudi Arabia, we are looking at you.

finally the national strategy needs to work in an international space to meet a series of interests and needs of your partner. That is, it must also be complementary and complementary to some of your partners’ strategies. That is why you see that when Shi Jinping goes to Riyadh, one thing that is happening is that the 2030 document complies the Development of Saudi Arabia 2030. A syntax is complementary to each other.

We have to do so. We have to define projects for the Chinese side if To cooperate with us in its own logic, to win, cover the full interests, and on the other hand, the macro attitudes that the Chinese have, as I mentioned, is to advance world civilization, as well as playing our role in a specific way. And I would like to emphasize that we should not allow us to be determined.

Tsim : There are internal barriers, there are international barriers that do not develop relations. We tried to solve this issue with the Chinese with a model; The model was that Iran was elected a special representative, and in China he elected the deputy prime minister and presented a representative to reach the right level. Where did it start and evaluate whether this model can be extended?

Nematollah Pahlavi: see first to go back to the same 25 -year document as our dear friend said is a roadmap, a memorandum of understanding when you are reviewing international law Words have a meaningful word. Once upon a time you say a contract or a contract you say that the statement means the statement, the statement does not require the approval of the parliaments, but the treaty requires the approval of the parliaments and will be implemented after the approval.

Memorandum of Understanding, as Mr. Adel said, is a roadmap. We need to review projects and create regular contracts that are precisely stated in the details, but what did not happen after the signature of the Special Leader’s Special Representative was appointed by Mr. Larijani. We were supposed to pursue this, but on the other hand we saw that he was completely disqualified in the presidential election. See

or even other places, such as this meeting of the partners of the countries and the roads held last year. Who was your representative? Mr. Zakani. While different countries have all participated in the Prime Minister and the President, what do you want to do? What part of Mr. Zakani is the area and the way they are? The area and the way, for example, the city of Tehran itself, how did you send the mayor of Tehran? You zoom in on your needs, without knowing what your strategy is at all. No, I just need such a project, so who can work with the Chinese I can only work, so telling them they certainly do not accept it. How much did you invest in China so far? We didn’t see anything special.

While one-third of your business with China is during this time the boycott was just China that showed you to you to Some, of course, takes risks to you and there is no other country.  So I feel that there is no strategy with China, that is, we really feel ourselves we don’t know what we want from China. You look at any country, you look at Japan, the roadmap is about China. It is a roadmap, not just about the regions about what we want what we want from them and in one Next year in the next five years now they have a 5 -year medium -term, one year, which is being released every year. Publishes about world powers, US publishes, China publishes, Japan publishes, but do you have such a roadmap for the most important partner?

Tasnim: I summarize your formation; That you did not consider the case -driven model a favorable model that could not overcome internal problems, and we need a new outlook at all. What features do you know that desirable landscape?

Nematollah Pahlavi: We have a number of restrictions on our relationship with China, which means that sanctions are preventing cooperation and expanding cooperation, internal barriers, we have some restrictions we have to deal with, such as a working group that we have to deal with. Work on China specifically and to coordinate the crowd of opposites inside the country and to present it to the Chinese in the form of a specific program in the form of a specific program and receive the same as this coordinator of the opposite. Inside the countries Many countries have a roadmap for a country that we don’t have and we have a number of international challenges.

Means that you were the first country to see the first president to come to Iran and request expansion of cooperation and investment. Now it doesn’t matter how much we did, but I want to say that by the way, China needs to lift sanctions to increase their relationships with us, as many of them said at various meetings that if you want to expand more of our relationships Remove the sanctions.

sanctions will and unwittingly create a series of restrictions and obstacles. Although they are not the main obstacle now, they are certainly reduced, so we see that relationships are not expanding anywhere else. At the business level, it does not reach the level of energy and even investment. So how to see our vision in relationships with China first I think we need to fix our internal and external problems.

Tasnim: I think another very important case we have in our economic field with the Chinese and permanent speculation is the Chabahar case, which is Makran coasts that are naturally many people. We now gave one of the ports to the Indians, and because of the competition between the Indians and the Chinese now there are all in a limbo that finally need to be revived by foreigners if we present to the Indians to see the north south. And the West to see what is your narrative of this?

Farshad Adel: It is very interesting when we work on the central map that the Chinese are very fond of and look at the axis of Afrarasia, the three continents of Africa in Europe and Asia, exactly the Makran region, especially the Chabahar port It is in the heart of the area, meaning it has the potential to connect the four continents. Asia to Europe, Europe to Oceania, Oceania to regions such as the Mediterranean and North Africa, and a special potential in terms of communication between different regions of the world, which we do in Iran, especially in Makran, and especially in Makran. We see the port of Chabahar, the only oceanic port. But practically the orientation that we currently is not the orientation to say that we want to develop this area, and the same discussion of cooperation with India in this case is a great example of how much we are. We are serious. .com/uploaded/video/03/06/140306193016778 “rel =” nofollow “style =” Display: Block; >

We have a special oceania port that can bring us a lot of economical and non-economic now. We gave the hands of some people we don’t know how much they want to work there? We don’t know what they did. We don’t know who the trustee is inside now. And what is the program we have for that area?

originally an interesting internal theme means if you want development if you want to be with China or India Or work with anyone. First, you have to lend yourself a dignity. At least I have a special plan, such as Oman working on the coast, and this development path that Iraq is cooperating anyway to build or build it Other projects, such as the Emirates experience, gave the world a message that I want to do a special job. Did we send this message to the world? Does anyone in the world now know where Chabahar is? به جز آن آدمهایی که واقعاً تخصص دارند و این مسئله را پیگیری می‌کنند؟

ما اصلاً روایتی نداریم ببینید من همیشه سعی کردم این مسئله را برجسته کنم ما مهمترین ضربات را از این می خوریم که اولاً ایجاد روایت از خودمان نمی‌کنیم و دوما کلان راهبرد تدوین نمی‌کنیم ما الان انواع و اقسام اسناد توسعه برای چابهار نوشتیم در نهایت انواع و اقسام شوراها الان داریم برای بحث مکران  اینها نهایتشان چه بوده است. بنابراین ما ابتدای امر باید

تسنیم: در همین چابهار هم با مدل پرونده محور سعی کردیم با آقای دهقان جلو ببریم.

فرشاد عادل:بله ایشان به هر حال آنجا مسئولیت داشتند و حالا دوستان دیگری هستند که متخصص این هم هستند حتماً می‌توانند بهتر نظر بدهند اما من می‌خواهم به این نقطه برسم؛ اصلاً کار نداریم ما داریم در چابهار به هر دلیلی با هند کار می کنیم. طرف چینی الان علاقه مند است بیاید در جاسک فعالیت انجام بدهد و ظرفیتش را هم دارد آنجا هم ظرفیت دارد و حوزه هایی که مدنظر است حوزه هایی است که می تواند ما را در زنجیره ارزش قرار بدهد و مهمتر از همه یک بستری باشد برای اینکه ما انتقال تکنولوژی داشته باشیم امروز جهان خودروهای برقی و انرژی های پاک و مسائل این چنینی است ما یک منطقه ای داریم که این پتانسیل را دارد که این فعالیت ها در آن شکل بگیرد و از طرفی یک ظرفیتی در این منطقه داریم خودروسازی ما با تمام معایبی که دارد به هرحال یک ظرفیتی در منطقه غرب آسیا است که شاید ظرفیت برجسته ای باشد؛ این را می توانیم به یک بستری برای همکاری تبدیل کنیم.

وقتی طرف چینی می گوید ابتکار و نمی آید بگوید پروژه یعنی همین. با همدیگر بنشینیم سرمیز صحبت کنیم و ببینیم که به چه ابتکاری می توانیم برسیم؟ به چه نقشه ای می توانیم برسیم؟ که همکاری هایمان را با همدیگر به یک نحوی هماهنگ کنیم و این همکاری ها منجر بشود به آن هدف اصلی که شکل دادن به یک زنجیره ارزش شرقی است. الان در بحث خودروسازی و خودروی های برقی انجام بدهیم در ایران ساخته شود و به عربستان برود و فروخته شود برندش برند چینی باشد آن دیزاینی که صورت بگیرد مثلا از جای دیگری باشد اینها همه بازی کردن با مزیتها می شود.

 شما مزیتهایی مختلفی از کشورهای مختلف می گیرید و تبدیل به محصول می شود و آن محصول برای شما تولید ارزش افزوده و ثروت می کند و این چرخه ادامه پیدا می کند و در نهایت شما با یک محوری در جهان روبرو هستید که این محور هم قدرت سیاسی دارد هم قدرت اقتصادی و هم قدرت فرهنگی دارد تمام این مسائلی که ما می بینیم مثل بریکس و شانگهای و ابتکارات این شکلی که شکل می گیرد و تاکیداتی که طرف چینی هم روی مسائل این چنینی دارد برای همین است که در نهایت این همکاری بین کشورهای مختلفی که امروز به هر نحوی به دنبال این هستند توسعه پیدا کنند ایجاد شود و چین از ظرفیت های آنها استفاده کند و به بازارهای آنها دسترسی پیدا کند و از طرفی به صنعت چین بیاید و سرمایه چینی و فناوری برتر چین دستیابی داشته باشند.

این یک نقش مکملی است که می توانند کشورها داشته باشند و چین هم می گوید من حسن نیت دارم و یک نشانه از حسن نیتش که خودشان می گویند ما تنها کشور عضو دائم شورای امنیت هستیم که این تعهد دادیم که استفاده پیش دستانه از سلاح هسته ای نداشته باشیم. اینها نشانه های روشنی است که می گوید من با بقیه متفاوت هستم. اینگونه به دنیا می گوید که:« تو اگر خاطره تلخ تاریخی از انگلیس و امریکا دارید من هم دارم». اگر به چین بروید یک سری قلعه ها و بقایایی هستند از این استعمارگرانی که آنجا بودند و این مناطق را خراب کردند و الان همانطوری نگه داشته است برای اینکه نشان بدهند که ما هم با شما هم دردیم و اصلا هم سرنوشتی یک موضوع مهمی است که در تمامی این رویکردهایی که چینی‌ها دارند به یک نحوی خودش را بروز می دهد و ما هم باید این کلید واژه را مد نظر داشته باشیم.

تسنیم: آقای پهلوان شما هم روایت خودتان را از شمالی جنوبی بودن یا شرق به غرب بودن چابهار بدهید؛ اگر بخواهیم چابهار را فعال کنیم می توانیم با دو طرف یعنی هم هندی هم چینی در نظر بگیریم یا کلاً می‌گوییم ما پیشا مسئله ایم یعنی ما باید یک اتمسفر دیگری کار کنیم تا زمینه برای شکل گیری این کریدور به وجود بیاید؟

نعمت الله پهلوانی:  کلا در جهان امروز ما نه دوست ثابتی داریم نه دشمن ثابتی داریم نه همکاری‌های ثابتی داریم، اینکه صرفاً بگوییم چابهار را به چینی ها یا هندی ها بدهیم من می گویم حتی خود چینی ها با امریکا کار می کنند با هند هم کار می کند دوست کار می کنند با دشمنشان هم کار می کند عربستان با امریکا و چین هم کار می کند. حالت اینکه صرفا چین و هند رقیب هم در منطقه جنوب آسیا هستند این یک مسئله است ما هم می توانیم در سواحل بی کران مکران در جنوب کشور هم با چینی ها کار کنیم هم با هندی ها کار کنیم چه ایرادی دارد؟

می توانیم چابهار را به هندی ها بدهیم گرچه کار خاصی نکردند و یک جای دیگر را به چینی ها بدهیم همان چابهار را می خواستند به چینی ها که گویا چینی ها پیشنهاد قبل از اینکه سمت گوادر بروند پیشنهادش را به ما داده بودند، چابهار چرا نشد خودش یک مسئله دیگری است ولی چین تا چشم اندازی که برای گوادر دارد،  52 میلیارد دلار می خواهد سرمایه گذاری کند که بخش اعظمی از آن را سرمایه گذاری کرده است ولی هندی ها که می خواستند تا 70-80 میلیون دلار سرمایه گذاری در چابهار انجام بدهند چیزی که برآورد می شود چیزی بین 20 تا 30 میلیارد دلار است.

تسنیم: این روایتی که وجود دارد هندی ها حضورشان به خاطر عدم حضور کشورهای دیگر است درست است؟

نمی توانم نیت آنها را بیان کنم ولی حداقل چیزی که به ما تلقین کردند این است در آن زمانی که می توانستیم این بندر را به چینی ها بدهیم و به سمت رشد و توسعه پیش ببرند و حداقل در آینده یک رقیبی برای بنادر مثل جبل علی شود الان کار به جایی پیش نرفته است. در حد چند جرثقیل اضافه کردند. ولی در کل من نظرم این است که اولا باید با این کشورها در گونه ای که نه رقیب دائمی وجود دارد نه دوست دائمی و نه دشمن دائمی؛ باید به صورت کوتاه مدت این همکاری ها را تعریف کنیم به صورت کوتاه مدت با طرف هندی تعریف کنیم که قرارداد همکاری و سرمایه گذاری شما در چابهار تعریف شود و اگر در کوتاه مدت انجام نشد یک دسته برتری داشته باشد برای اینکه در این مدت قرار بود انجام بدهید و ندادید می توانیم جایگزین کنیم.

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